09
May
10

#195 – “Smaller Fish Unfried”



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41 Responses to “#195 – “Smaller Fish Unfried””


  1. 1 TheNic
    May 9, 2010 at 21:15

    Fiiiirst to comment! but I agree with Tiny…Goblins are scums and deserve to DIE! kill them all! non may survive!

  2. 3 Ripwarrior
    May 9, 2010 at 21:29

    I sort of have to agree with Areen…just killing someone out of cold blood…it’s not really an easy choice to make..but on topic. Great comic….loved Areen’s face when she looked up to Tiny.
    Though I’m kind of wondering what makes her so…eager for destruction…something in the past I guess( beeing shrunk might have done something to her mood :P

  3. 4 Elveswarrior
    May 9, 2010 at 22:05

    i agree with tiny. areen is a bad influence on hani.

  4. 5 Nirene Feathersong
    May 9, 2010 at 22:19

    Tiny is a cold blood murrrrder! *shudders*

    But yea, it might be a mood swing from when she was shrunk … or she’s just having a grudge against tiny creatures who tinker with machines. Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that some engineer was behind the whole reason which made Tiny … uhm … tiny?

    • 6 Iasion
      May 10, 2010 at 21:47

      I kind of like that Tiny is so mirthless with the lives of others. She strikes me as a little imp who sits on Hani’s shoulder and whispers in her ear. Tiny herself isn’t the one who slays their foes, it’s always someone more physically capable. This is a totally different light than what you see most NE in. Hani can turn the whole ‘cold warrior’ persona off and on. Tee seems to be the Assassination rogue whose feelings are reserved for completing the bottom line of an agenda and disregarding what opponents die, whether or not they’re genuinely bad.

      I can’t really tell how I feel about Tiny because of this. Sometimes I wonder if there are any of these ancient NE who arrogantly look down on the ephemeral lives of other humanoids, or of Tee is just really jaded for other reasons.

      I recall random runs through BRD or Steam Vault where some players would insist on killing the slaves while others would let them go. I got reasons for killing them like, “Because it’s fun” or “They attacked us” to more mechanical reasons, “Extra xp.” Other players would want them to escape because they believed the slaves to be operating only out of fear of what would happen to them if they didn’t attack. Tee seems like the former type, while Areen and Te’len seem like the latter.

      Still, tough to say how shrinking has affected Tiny. I’m still interested in seeing how she did that, or how it was done to her.

  5. 7 WormRunner
    May 10, 2010 at 00:34

    Tempting, and a slippery slope. This is in miniature, the choice of Arthas, to kill not for what is happening, but for what might happen, and in so doing, become the evil you are trying to destroy. I take Hani’s side with this one.

  6. 8 saila aka wester
    May 10, 2010 at 07:28

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=10716#comments think that had something to do whit it?

  7. 9 Ripwarrior
    May 10, 2010 at 07:42

    Nah, don’t think the gnomish shrink ray would be it, cause then I would think…that she would be more unfriendly towards letting Areen join the group, than she is towards those goblins.

    This smells more like magic. trolls maybe?

  8. 10 Fenrisu
    May 10, 2010 at 08:19

    One word, a guess, why she hate goblins…

    Noggenfogger.

  9. 11 LolDrood
    May 10, 2010 at 08:52

    Panel 4 makes me jealous of Tiny. : /

    I think it’s more, “They directly/indirectly tried to kill my friends. Rage!” then annoyance at being small. She seems to enjoy that part of her current life.

  10. 12 saila aka wester
    May 10, 2010 at 10:29

    4 panel after LolDrood pointed it out my eye rested for an moment an but right of Tiny and let say my mind got clogged.
    //ps good to see that the shirt cloth is more then an mere texture.

  11. May 10, 2010 at 10:54

    Good chapter as allways.
    I think Areen might actually help Nhani become a better person, give her a goal in life.
    It’s nice to see without any dialogue or text boxes how her charecture develops.

  12. 14 Larsey
    May 10, 2010 at 12:38

    It is QUITE the view from where Tiny sits in the 4th panel

  13. 15 Nirene Feathersong
    May 10, 2010 at 14:15

    She doesn’t wear a bra! O.O

    Or … maybe she didn’t wear a bra to begin with. Uhm, never mind…

    But yea, Tiny might have a grudge against goblins after she drank one of them Noggenfogger elixirs. As stated, never trust a goblin! *nods* *nods*

  14. 17 Fokker
    May 10, 2010 at 15:40

    She should be happy it didn’t permamently turn her into a skeleton…

  15. 18 Niels de Jong
    May 10, 2010 at 22:05

    Dear Nhani,

    First of all i wanted to tell you how much of a fan i have become by reading your entire story from the beginning all the way to this point :)

    Second of all this shows a remarkable amount of skill because you made all these pages, and all of them were beautifully original and entertaining :)

    And Third: The barmaid with the accent, and the drunk mage ARE going to get together i hope? :D
    I kinda have been shipping them from the moment i saw them ^^; i mean, they do look like a married couple, don’t they? :)

    Though not as much as I would love to see miss Nila and Delgren togheter ^_^ now THOSE two look cute together! :3

    • May 10, 2010 at 22:44

      Well i woouldn’t mind seeing those couples together.
      Heck, chances might be Nhani and this mysterious Orc charecture might get together.
      Assuming they both will be stubborn wariror types and such.

    • 20 Nhani
      May 11, 2010 at 00:04

      Shipping, hah, that makes me feel famous.

      Duos and Dhappy will most most likely keep appearing together, in the very least – they make for a great comedic duo and I have a whole lot of fun writing their banter. As for if anything more develops between them.. we’ll see; both of them are effectively extended cameos, and I’d love to avoid being lynched by either party ;)

      As for Te’len.. well.. not saying. You’ll have to wait and see there, I’m afraid!

      • 21 saila aka wester
        May 11, 2010 at 11:44

        you don´t know the answer of the question yourself don´t you? or at least its not last thought of it you might/have an few ide but they are like dessicated yet in the script page you keep on your desktop.

        • 22 Nhani
          May 11, 2010 at 13:39

          Depends, really; direct specifics are rarely completely nailed down until we get to them, and characters can (and will) surprise me sometimes. That said, love interests tend to represent significant character development and as such isn’t something I take on lightly; every single love interest I’ve considered – including the ones that ultimately got rejected – have had significant thought poured into them to get a feel for how and why the relationship would work, how it started and what it does for those involved.

          I rarely have the exact details, but the key moments, the defining elements and all that tend to be put in place early on. So with Te’len, I more or less already know what’ll be happening. It might change, of course, but I’m presently assuming not.

          Duos and Dhappy are a different story as they’re basically just extended cameos that I find fun to write; they don’t have established character journeys like the main cast, so they have far more space and leeway to surprise me.

  16. 23 saila aka wester
    May 12, 2010 at 07:26

    some kind of answer i was actually expecting now that thought have been confirmed.
    Any way Nhani are you naming your model anything or are they just actor01 and that or something completely different?

    • 24 Nhani
      May 12, 2010 at 08:36

      Again, depends. Main character models (read: poseable models) tend to consist of some 30-40 elements at -least- between one or multiple body elements, hair, all the various props they have to use attached to different bones; not to mention the bones themselves. I keep a naming convention for all that so I can find what I’m looking for when doing import/searching for a specific bit.

      On the other hand, models that are just quickly imported and not touched up tend to end up being Box01, Box02 and soforth.

  17. 25 Frostsaben
    May 13, 2010 at 14:43

    Weird that some people agree with Areen on this one but guess everyone with their ideeas.

    I for one don’t agree.

    “if we do not hold ourselves at a higher standard, how could we claim to be any better then them?”

    Well but if you let them go without any punishment they will most surely go back to their evil deeds. Then one day when you’re down and they are with a knife at your throat you’ll think “Why did I let them go back then, now they came for revenge”.

    Let me give an example from real life and one from WoW.
    From real life, before World War 2 started Hitler invaded the Czech Republic, then re-militarised the Renan zone and France and the United Kingdom decided to scare him a little so they put people in trenches along the border with France. At that point the combined forces of France and UK were much better then Germany’s forces, but in the time they stood there doing nothing Germany build a better army and considered what to do… you all know what happened afterwards.

    And an example from WoW, The Horde knew for some time of the experiments the Forsaken were making, there was even 1 quest where you give an aphotecary a vial and he gives it to a tauren who was feeling bad and she dies, and he laughs. Still, for beeing allies of the Horde, the Forsaken were only said to stop their experiments and then… the Wratgate incident that killed countless warriors of both sides, Horde and Alliance and reopened the war between the 2 again, which will kill countless more in time. You can argue that the war would have started anyway, but more time it would have passed the more the 2 would have had time to talk, like a Cold War, but not a proper one. So if the Forsaken were stopped for good then many lives would have been saved.

    • 26 Luklan
      May 14, 2010 at 04:10

      And yet I’ve seen people who get punished, in the real world, continue what they’re doing anyway. What are you going to do to punish those goblins? Kill one, and tell the others “This’ll happen to you if you don’t do as I say”? Unarmed and asking for mercy?

      If anything, that makes you worse than Sneed, who’s just there to make a quick buck, and who was at least attacking armed people who could defend themselves. Yes, his actions in helping the Defias were probably going to lead to a lot of hurt people, but he wasn’t, and probably wouldn’t be, there for that, he was just doing a job he was paid to do.

      Morality is often shadows of grey, more than any clear-cut black and white decision, and often you have to do it without knowing what the consequences will be, what decision the other person will make because, after all, they’re other people who have to make their own decisions.

      Those goblins might surprise Areen later, in a good way. A useful gift for sparing them, or free information, or something, to repay the kindness.

      They might also do the opposite. You never know.

      The other choicse was to tie them up and take them to the proper authorities, but let’s be honest. Are you going to take all those goblins, whose loyalty is only to their own hides, with you deeper into the deadmines? And leaving them alone is just silly as well, they could escape while your group was away. And splitting up… Worse idea.

      • 27 Frostsaben
        May 14, 2010 at 17:32

        “but he wasn’t, and probably wouldn’t be, there for that, he was just doing a job he was paid to do.”

        You know, that was the argument some of Hitler’s generals gave at their trials “I was only doing my job”. Do you think that because they were payed for it it makes them even better? No, it makes them worst in fact. You may say these are not generals, but engineers at least yes, and an army supported by good engineers is always necesary.

        “What are you going to do to punish those goblins? Kill one, and tell the others “This’ll happen to you if you don’t do as I say”? Unarmed and asking for mercy?”

        The ones before them had axes, they are all there to cut the wood therefor they all have axes, just that these gave their weapons up, and even if they didn’t i’d make no difference.
        And no, not kill one and say to the others what will happen, you need to kill all of course. Am I heartless, mean? Ask any person that had a crime of any sort commited against them and you’ll see they agree.
        Some robbers came to my house once and stole several stuff, now I wasn’t home, but if I was, do you think I would have stood by doing nothing or just called the police? No, those were criminals, a plague upon society.
        A few months later, another robber came, but this time I was home. I rushed outside and when he was about to jump fence I caught his leg and tried to pull him down… unfortunately a lady helped him on the other side… I still hope he grinded his balls to my barbed wire enough to never have children again, but I can’t be sure since he ran before I could get the key to the gate to go get him.
        And the police… give me a break, don’t know how the police is there, but here they are a bunch of incompentent buffons, when I called them the first time I called them every 30 min and it took them 5 hours to come, besides that they didn’t make a good investigations, they just got prints and that’s all… second time they said that no crime had been comited so they don’t care… so what should I have done? give the robbers my most precious items and tell him to come again?

        • 28 Nirene Feathersong
          May 14, 2010 at 22:52

          I couldn’t agree less that criminals should be punished. But, lets be honest, there’s a difference between punishment and, in your case, morally justified slaughter. But I wouldn’t call it morally justified by any means. In this very case, those goblins haven’t done anything wrong.

          Let me give you an example: If those goblins were to jump out and attack the group on sight, it would make sense to actually kill them. Even if they were to jump the group from behind after they were dismissed, you still can’t say that killing them before they commit the crime to be justified.

          To link it to a real-life situation, it would be the same as killing the new-born child of drug-addicted chriminal parents because you claim thet the kid will become the same drug-addicted chriminal as they are. Thing is, you cannot be absolutely certain it will be that way. The only right thing to do is to, in some way, prevent said kid from walking down that path, or simply punish him when he commits the chrime.

          I hope I’ve cleared some light into that topic and will leave it there.

          • 29 Frostsaben
            May 16, 2010 at 07:57

            Ok, maybe you are right in a way. I don’t fully agree, but you’ve brought a new ideea though supported by good facts.

            “Thing is, you cannot be absolutely certain it will be that way. The only right thing to do is to, in some way, prevent said kid from walking down that path, or simply punish him when he commits the chrime.”

            You are right, must say I didn’t think of it that way… maybe the goblins can be considered at the wrong place and time… for now… unless they do something fishy, I’ll have my view all over them to check!

    • 30 Badger
      May 16, 2010 at 13:23

      You got the timeline wrong. Other than that I agree Frostsaben.

      Hitler occupied the Rheinland (violation of the Treaty of Versailles), he reinstated the draft (violation of the Treaty of Versailles), he then invaded Austria (1938) and held a mock election (the first sovereign nation which the Entente let him have, the election was a joke and heavily manipulated by his minions, it would not pass any democratic standard), he took the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia (since the majority of the population there was German) under the pretense of the “Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker” (the right of selfdetermination of the peoples) and then he finally snatched Czechoslovakia, while threatening Europe with outright war and the British and the French, every single time, let him get away with it.

      They could have crushed Hitler at every single moment. He wouldn’t have had much chance. But they let him go, they let him do all this, including occupying two sovereign nations, just to maintain peace. “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?” (Patrick Henry, 1775) Apparently for Chamberlain and Daladier the answer to this was “Yes”

      Reportedly Hitler was outraged that the British and French gave in and gave him Czechoslovakia, because he wanted a war. That’s why he was pushing them all the time. He wanted his war. And he didn’t stop. The attack on Poland was finally enough. But even if they would have given him Poland, he would not have stopped. Hitler wanted war. He once said that he would rather have his war with 50 than with 55.

      Churchill commented on The Appeaser Neville Chamberlain with: “He was given a choice between war and dishounor. He chose dishounor and he will have war anyway.”

      Same with criminals.

      Punishment in some European countries is a joke these days. You can rape several children, or even be a repeat offender and the government then pays your therapy (while your victims get raped again, this time by the government which shafts them and does nothing for them.) That’s why I like the Japanese. There was a case where a guy murdered, raped and ate several little girls. He was finally executed a year ago or so (huzzah!) Of course (sh)amnesty international screamed murder. Because… this execution violated the monster’s dignity.

      Punishment for crimes has gone too soft in the West. Especially in Europe. Police is all about “de-escalation” and not about enforcing the law. Police in Germany and Austria actually tells you to run away if you’re threatened.

      I have a simple rule: attack my family and I kill you. Don’t want to get killed? Then don’t attack my family.

      That said, why not make short work of those goblins? They will turn on the party at the next possible moment. They will go back to working for a group like the Defias, or worse, the Horde. How many innocents will die because of this?

      “We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

      Welcome to the real world. It’s not a pacifist utopia where we all hug trees. If you want to live, keep a gun under your pillow, or an army in your country. And certainly don’t let the goblins just walk away.

  18. 31 Weertangel
    May 15, 2010 at 14:23

    Its just the Paladins convictions that Areen is trying to spread, they always walk the high and narrow trail, and to them, to fall from that path is a fate worse then death.(see Arthas)

    and while i don’t agree with killing unarmed enemies, the very least they could have done was put the goblins in a cage or something, couse while they were unarmed, they were FAR from being innecent…

    And when in a Dungeon, Suspect everyone u encounter…..

  19. 32 Yerdiss
    May 17, 2010 at 12:55

    Ah, this is an interesting discussion regarding morality. I feel it needs two cents though, so I’ll add mine. I post this only after the new comic came up, since it is a tad off topic, of course.

    I will use (fairly abstract) analogy at several places to clarify. Keep in mind that those are merely examples. There are two points I wish to make (one cent per!). “Subjectivity of right and wrong” and “Reality versus what could’ve happened”

    Subjectivity of right and wrong

    First a definition: “To Judge • verb 1 form an opinion about. 2 give a verdict on in a law court. according to Oxford’s dictionary. Judging seems to be at the centre point of the current discussion, which evolves around “How to deal with wrongdoers”.

    Now, before punishment can be meted out, there should be a ‘crime’ or ‘misdeed’, for else what is it we punish? Another tour to the dictionary: “Crime • noun 1 an offence against an individual or the state which is punishable by law. 2 such actions collectively. 3 informal something shameful or deplorable.”

    It all seems so simple. Subject A commits a crime. Subject B punishes him. Easy!

    Well, in Utopia, it ought to be. But in truth, we cope with subjective views and relativity. So let’s be frank, everyone who claims that they act rightfully in punishing a ‘criminal’ themselves, inherently and implicitly claim that they have the capacity to first judge that person to be a criminal. Sometimes, this seems easy. When someone robs you, that fact is certainty in your mind. Combine this with the generally consented on rule that “robbing people is wrong” and the generally accepted response that “wrongdoing should be punished”, and the scene is set for you to want to respond with force.

    Individually spoken, from the viewpoint of the victim, this is understandable. However, this situation is nothing more than the primitive “might makes right”. For I can translate this scenario to “You did something I disagree with. I will stop you”. Why would you not also act with force to get all the other things you feel should be? For instance, “I feel your money should be mine, I will take it?” Oh wait, that would make you the robber. No, we need a higher authority that allows us to justify our behaviour. This should be something more than just one person’s opinion on how the world should turn.

    Most people adhere to the law for this. Imperfect as it may be, it is carried by an entire people and enforced by an institution that formally should have the monopoly to violence anyway: our respective governments. Others cannot stand the pain of those situations in which the law fails, and seek another authority. Ethics, religion, maybe just a subculture to justify their behaviour or in extreme cases: their own insight is elevated to higher authority. (Thus approving the might is right approach and setting oneself up as the mightiest). Once this happens, enforcement becomes impractical, sometimes impossible, since multiple higher authorities will claim dominion on the premises of right and wrong. And where they disagree, they both fail, leading to a (hopefully temporary) state of anarchy until either just one of the conflicting higher authorities remains or a new even higher authority arises. What once was a simple issue of “you do something wrong and it should be dealt with” has now become “We do not know right from wrong”. And why? Because many viewpoints exist, but only one of those can rule. And frankly, the viewpoint of an individual usually is usually considered less important than that of the ‘generally accepted higher authority’.

    In short, a question to ask ourselves in these situations: “What makes you so certain that you are right and they are wrong?”

    Reality versus what could’ve happened

    Another issue that reared its (quite ugly) head in this discussion is in fact a logical fallacy (noun (pl. fallacies) 1 a mistaken belief. 2 a failure in reasoning which makes an argument invalid.[)

    We start our reasoning from an event in reality. I shall call this event “Shit happens” (I apologise for this coarse use language, even though it fits the bill perfectly).

    “Shit happens” is considered undesirable. We continue our reasoning using hindsight to determine what went wrong and in doing so trying to establish what could have been done to avoid shit from happening. Some would describe this not as “could have been done” but as “should have been done”. In this, I refer to the paragraph on higher authorities and leave the judgement of ‘what should’ to it, not to myself. We as individuals can however freely ponder what could have gone differently.

    The fallacy I have noticed is that some people tend to believe that “shit happens is bad, thus anything else is not shit happening, thus not bad, thus good”. This is of course complete humbug, since “shit happening” is just one of many kinds of unfortunate events. Many other possible cases might be even less desirable than “shit happening”. Reality only showed us the outcome of one case, and no living individual possesses the level of prophetic divination to predict what would have been the outcome of that situation when certain elements change.

    “I let the criminal go and two days after, he stabbed an old lady”. In hindsight, one could conclude that killing said criminal instead of letting him go would prevent the old lady from dying. But would that have made the world a better place? And yet even if a higher authority eventually concludes that it believes this actually would have made the world a better place, we then are open to fall prey to yet another fallacy. “Once I encounter a second criminal. I should kill him immediately, because the first criminal stabbed an old lady when I let him go”.

    The problems in such reasoning are legion. Is your interpretation of the situation correct? Punishing an innocent because the judge erred is serious business. Is your assessment of the consequence of your action correct? If you argue that action must be taken to prevent a scenario that would never happened, the grounds for punishments are void. And so on, and so on.

    Encore

    A question that lies at the core of this issue is “Would you rather punish an innocent or let a guilty person go unpunished?” For most people this question is answered based on personal experiences, and over time a natural flux can be seen. The harsher punishments are, the more people will have personal experiences with being falsely punished, which in itself feels as bad or worse as being the victim of a crime. (Worse if the person needs the security of a trustworthy governing institution. Trust is lost once innocents are endangered by said institution). The softer punishments are, the more frequent people will feel victimised and ignored, inducing a wish to harsher punishments. Individual opinions throughout this spectrum are valid, since they are opinions. But beware the arguments used: they often are only subjective views or a flawed deduction of consequences.

  20. May 20, 2010 at 04:01

    As a Christian, I prefer to err on the side of mercy, especially as an imitation of the the Divine Mercy. And, as one of the Founders said (don’t ask me which, I don’t remember): “It is better that a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished. For, if the innocent and the guilty are both punished alike, then they will lose all reason to try to be honest.”

    Even back in Vanilla, the Steamwheedle Cartel dealt more-or-less honestly with both the Horde and the Alliance. These goblins will pose no threat unless the party is SERIOUSLY weakened. While I expect they were hired from the Venture Co., they may clean up their act in the future.

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